General•Osho on Vegetarianism

  • "If you meditate long enough, deep enough, it is impossible for you to hurt anybody for food; it is impossible. It is not a question of argument, it is not a question of scriptures, it is not who says what, it is not a question of calculating that if you take vegetarian food you will become spiritual; it is automatic. It is not a question of cunningness, you simply become spiritual. The whole thing seems so absurd. Just for food, killing animals, birds, seems so absurd, it falls down."

    "Vegetarianism has nothing to do with religion: it is something basically scientific. It has nothing to do with morality, but it has much to do with aesthetics. It is unbelievable that a man of sensitivity, awareness, understanding, love, can eat meat. And if he can eat meat then something is missing he is still unconscious somewhere of what he is doing, unconscious of the implications of his acts."

    "Vegetarianism should not be anything moral or religious. It is a question of aesthetics: one’s sensitivity, one’s respect, one’s reverence for life."


  • "Vegetarianism is of immense help. It changes your chemistry. When you eat and live on animals…. The first thing: whenever an animal is killed the animal is angry, afraid — naturally. When you kill an animal… just think of yourself being killed. What will be the state of your consciousness? What will be your psychology? All kinds of poisons will be released in your body, because when you are angry a certain kind of poison is released into your blood. When you are afraid, again a certain other kind of poison is released into your blood. And when you are being killed, that is the utmost in fear, anger. All the glands in your body release all their poison. And man goes on living on that poisoned meat. If it keeps you angry, violent, aggressive, it is not strange; it is natural. Whenever you live on killing, you don’t have any respect for life; you are inimical to life. And the person who is inimical to life cannot move into prayer — because prayer means reverence for life."

    "Try vegetarianism and you will be surprised: meditation becomes far easier. Love becomes more subtle, loses its grossness — becomes more sensitive but less sensuous, becomes more prayerful and less sexual. And your body also starts taking on a different vibe. You become more graceful, softer, more feminine, less aggressive, more receptive. Vegetarianism is an alchemical change in you. It creates the space in which the baser metal can be transformed into gold."

  • It's an argument not worth having because it is a difference in philosophy, but this can not and does not provide a one-stop manifesto of every mans experience. I find it ironic that spiritual leaders make such absolutist claims, denying the integrity and goodness of all forms of human being.

    That makes a lot of overblown connections, and insults the vast majority of nature that has grown, evolved, progressed and lived off the wonder of the circle of life. I am personally fed up with the spiritual vilification of nature like this. I am not directing this towards you Rob or any other individual. My problem is with what I consider to be an arrogant, hypocritical philosophy of telling others what acts they are able to embark in if they are to be in harmony with nature.

    Vegetarianism is a personal choice with benefits and consequences. To insist otherwise is to be no better than a bible thumper walking around trying to convert those who are at peace with their own being (and those who are not).

  • I'm not looking for a debate, but it has been my finding of a good deal of scientific research that we (humans) are not designed to eat meat.

    Sure, it has helped us spread over the face of the globe, but that doesn't change our physiological makeup. We are just not meat eaters. It's also one of the reasons we as a species are facing a large number of degenerative diseases that just aren't found in nature otherwise.

    Again, that is the conclusion of my findings, and mine alone. I've read the retorts, and do not feel they have merit.

    I feel every word said above is truth. Those who meditate end up being vegetarian. Whether people see those who just may be further advanced spiritually as arrogant or not is largely a measure of their own personal egos in my opinion. The fact is, there are those in this world that are further down the path than others, take it or leave it.

  • "Again, that is the conclusion of my findings, and mine alone. I've read the retorts, and do not feel they have merit."

    Once again, not trying to be an asshole here. I feel this is the fundamental reason me and you find it difficult to communicate. You gain solace from denying any merit in opposing views. I gain solace from seeing the point each perspective makes and creating a composite of philosophy that can explain benefits without vilifying the options (or the nature) of the act.

    I don't think one is more "right" or "wrong" than the other. I think your nature has guided you to learn about the things that are best for you in a way that best serves your psychology and your physiology. I applaud you for this extraordinary level of self-discipline and determination. I meditate and I know a large number of people who also meditate. I like vegetables and meat. Most of the people I have known that meditate do the same.

    I do realize there are a large number of people who meditate and also are vegetarian. A large contributing factor to this is for those who are involved in new age concepts to take on other new age concepts to be a part of a new age community or mindset. They are constantly bombarded with social pressure to "conform" to "non-conformity" and eventually believe they are making choices that are somehow more "moral" than the choices of others.

  • Since I am not one to give up, I hope that someday I can properly explain to you that while I appreciate your insights into the health benefits, I do not enjoy the fact that the arguments themselves are about morality more so than practicality and nutrition.

    It is not the spiritual advancement that reverberates with arrogance. It's the lack of understanding of the merits the yang provides to their yin. It's the absolute denial of the merits of the shadow that make me recoil and respond in the manner that I do.

    One of the major ironies and dangers of the spiritual path is the loss of humility and perspective. I don't live in a linear universe, therefore no matter where you are on your path, you are not farther along THE path. This should be extremely evident when you consider the extremely popular new age concept of "Oneness".

    I hope you realize that I am not trying to be childish or play devils advocate. I see a real danger in the actual benefits of your message being lost in the arrogance and judgement of the presentation. have you listened to the David Hawkins "The Highest Levels of Consciousness" series? I find my mind going to that often in these situations when I need to re-center my perspective regarding "good" vs. "evil", so that I can see the equal and incredible benefit of all . Even that which the human mind's first instinct is to vilify.

  • Yeah and the vegetarian argument COMPLETELY ignores the history of the Native Americans and their relationship with animals.

    Was it about gratuitous wanton killing and violence? Absolutely not.

    The Native Americans had a GREAT reverence for the animals they ate ultimately understanding both of their roles in the biosphere of survival.

    They would even do special rituals and ceremonies to celebrate the transformation of the buffalo to the Native American.

    It was a sacred exchange of life.

    This is the concept behind Kosher and Halal meats where there is a rabbi and imam at the chopping block to bless the animal at its death.

    The idea here is that this process brings reverence and sacredness to the situation.

    "In hunting societies, animals were thought to sacrifice themselves willingly to hunters according them the proper respect. Respect towards the animals was defined by many customs and taboos - for instance, the careful disposal of bones - and the shaman helped the hunters to make the proper observances, especially when it seemed that a Guardian Spirit had been offended. In respecting an animal, though, a hunter treated it as a person, asking its permission to hunt it, and in some cultures, offering a particular prayer to the Guardian Spirit for pardon after a successful kill."

    http://www.shamansong.com/gpage1.html

    According to your argument though the Native Americans were somehow spiritual unevolved because we are not "designed to eat meat", is that the case?

    How does this fit in to the vegetarian picture?

    What if we just moved toward a more reverent approach to nature in our handling of meat on an industry level?

  • Oh I definitely think that there have been more respectful ways to take the lives of animals, even what some might consider spiritual ways.

    I also think a distinction should be made between discussing meat eating from a health/physiology point of view and from a spiritual/compassion point of view.

    I purposefully picked a strong sentiment in this post to stir the pot by the way. ;-)

  • "Once again, not trying to be an asshole here. I feel this is the fundamental reason me and you find it difficult to communicate. You gain solace from denying any merit in opposing views."


    Chris, the reason we have trouble communicating is because you make statements like the one above without knowing the person you are talking about. You are talking out your ass.


  • I was speaking from my observations of your responses. My eyes are open, and I am not speaking out my ass. if you don't want to listen to me, don't read my responses i guess. No offense is intended. I appreciate your knowledge, probably more than you know.

  • Rob I'd like to actually review some of the material that has convinced you of meat's detriment from a health/physiology point of view.

    List any books, authors, article or otherwise which support this claim.

    I certainly think that excessive meat is a problem but I'm not sure about zero meat altogether.

    Consider this bit of anecdotal evidence: I know a woman who lived in a commune and had an alternate lifestyle growing up. She was a raw foodist for a long time. In fact, she was a raw foodist while pregnant. She had a little girl. This little girl absolutely LOVED meat. She described to me how this girl would scarf down meat when it was put in front of her.

    You have had time to do research, contemplate and make the appropriate changes to your lifestyle to support the evidence you have found.

    But what about that little girl? What was it within her innately (because I don't think she would quite be ready to review scientific studies) that caused her to scarf the meat down?

    And that little story--although completely anecdotal--is a very good indication from a yin and yang perspective to me about balance. She was a raw foodist and her daughter LOVED meat. I found that children are created in part to teach the parents lessons about life. What do you think the lesson was for this woman?

    I would argue that the balance can be met in many different ways.

  • I think the body has its own intelligence when it comes to these things. It was likely that her mother was not eating a balanced diet and was deficient in some way that led the child to be the same. Why was meat placed down in front of her to begin with? Seems like an odd thing for a raw foodist to place in front of their newborn, doesn't it?

    As for the discussion, I'd like to change things up a bit here. How about listing all of the possible reasons you can think of for eating meat?

  • Well I think she had switched from being a raw foodist is the point. (i.e. sounds like the daughter would have sought it out on her own.)

    Rob, I don't mind listing the reasons for eating meat but that doesn't mean that you can ignore my very relevant and pertinent inquiries.

    I would like you to answer them please.

  • Hey Aaron.

    Yea, not trying to dodge your inquiry. I'm interested in seeing the other side of things. I personally can't see much benefit in eating meat, other than personal preference. It slows the digestive tract to the point of disorder, rots in the colon, ends up with a net loss in energy to break down, and provides little that the body can use. By the time meat is digested and broken down, little is left in the form of protein for use by the body, which then has to be broken down further into amino acids. This doesn't even begin to touch on the harm that the industrial style farm operations are doing to the environment, or the effects on the body of the toxins and medicines that these animals are pumped full of in order to survive until slaughter.

    I know these are hard things to accept for those who eat meat. I'm not saying they are bad for doing so, but your body is not as healthy when eating meat as it is when not. That's the bottom line.

    If you want scientific evidence, read "The China Study". Great book.

  • and then there's shit like this:

    http://www.care2.com/greenliving/meat-recall.html

  • I'd also like to add that although some might like to label themselves as 'vegetarian', I do so only for the sake of description. I do not consider myself any 'ist' or 'ian'. To do so, in my opinion, is severely limiting.

    I'd also like to add that things ingested are good and bad for the body in a vast spectrum. Although some 'raw foodists' would scoff at the idea, I don't see any problem with adding some organic (not living) ketchup to my living food burger. It's not going to negate all of the goodness and living enzymatic activity in the burger, and it's certainly not going to harm me, especially being in good health.

    Meat is also in that vast spectrum. I think you'll find the portions of meat eaten at one time by native Indians is extremely small in comparison to the hunks of steak and chicken most people eat with virtually every meal, every day.

    I think the bottom line is the best practice for every person is to become aware of how foods are affecting their system, and to pay attention to their digestive processes. I've found the best way to increase one's awareness is through contrast. It's hard to tell what eating meat, or eating non-live food feels like when that is all you know. Even eating just a week of vegetarian meals would provide some contrast, and some experiential data as to how not eating meat feels, although probably far too short for any major breakthrough.

    This is one reason I really love working with Live foods. One week of eating a raw/living food diet and you WILL feel a difference. :-) It's like always having put diesel fuel in your non-diesel engine, and all of a sudden switching back to the proper fuel. All of the bodies systems begin immediately to work on rebuilding and cleaning out. One week and you just feel different, better, lighter, more alive, more energetic.


  • Be the experiment, the lab, and the scientist. It's the only way to know what works for you!

Want to take part in this discussion? Click one of these: Sign In Apply for Membership
Back to Discussions

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to take part in the discussions, click one of these buttons!

Sign In Apply for Membership

Categories

Remember: Post with love.



HOME  |   ABOUT  |   CONTACT  |   THE GAME  |   FORUM  |   PRODUCTS & PROGRAMS  |   CONTRIBUTE  |   TWITTER  |   FACEBOOK  |   DONATE
© Copyright 2008-2010 by The LOVEolution. web design by getCarbonated.